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	<title>Comments on: Can a Pagan Holidy be made Christian?</title>
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	<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian</link>
	<description>Will it look like the morning sunrise?</description>
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		<title>By: Marysia</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22800</link>
		<dc:creator>Marysia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 03:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>the same way clinton&#039;s people have not become obama&#039;s
the same way the Pantheon is Catholic
the pagan celebration itself f still exists while those practicing pagans. however for the Catholics who chose differently, they not celebrate Christ&#039;s birth instead of the pagan holiday.

what&#039;s not to understand.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the same way clinton&#8217;s people have not become obama&#8217;s<br />
the same way the Pantheon is Catholic<br />
the pagan celebration itself f still exists while those practicing pagans. however for the Catholics who chose differently, they not celebrate Christ&#8217;s birth instead of the pagan holiday.</p>
<p>what&#8217;s not to understand.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: mah</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22799</link>
		<dc:creator>mah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 03:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Catholic Church has inducted many pagan rites into their belief system, and other religious organizations have also adopted the ones the Catholic church has.  Such as New Years, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, and others.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Catholic Church has inducted many pagan rites into their belief system, and other religious organizations have also adopted the ones the Catholic church has.  Such as New Years, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, and others.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: Sacra Veritas</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22798</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacra Veritas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 03:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes, the christianization of several practices in history are evidence of this. The point of this is that God revealed himself even through nature as Saint Paul talked about. The Church can rightly illuminate that truth which has clearly been done the symbols of Christmas. 

Holly (green leaves, prickly points, red berries): from ancient times evergreens were symbols of life and eternity, now suggest that the child born in the manger would wear a crown of thorns and shed drops of blood.

Mistletoe: long associated with healing in the pagan world, became a symbol of the healing power of Christ.

Peace.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the christianization of several practices in history are evidence of this. The point of this is that God revealed himself even through nature as Saint Paul talked about. The Church can rightly illuminate that truth which has clearly been done the symbols of Christmas. </p>
<p>Holly (green leaves, prickly points, red berries): from ancient times evergreens were symbols of life and eternity, now suggest that the child born in the manger would wear a crown of thorns and shed drops of blood.</p>
<p>Mistletoe: long associated with <a href="http://www.worldinchrist.com/AwakenYourInnerSpirit" style="color:#0000FF;font-weight:bold;" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmouseover="self.status='Awaken Your Inner Spirit';return true;" onmouseout="self.status=''">healing</a> in the pagan world, became a symbol of the <a href="http://www.worldinchrist.com/AwakenYourInnerSpirit" style="color:#0000FF;font-weight:bold;" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmouseover="self.status='Awaken Your Inner Spirit';return true;" onmouseout="self.status=''">healing</a> power of Christ.</p>
<p>Peace.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: Sldgman</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22797</link>
		<dc:creator>Sldgman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 02:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>From your own posting, you have shown that Christmas is NOT a Christinized pagan holiday.  it is a holiday that is purposely celebrated on the same day as a pagan holiday.  

As far as pagan observances being incorporated into a Christian holiday, I have never seen a yule log or mistletoe in a church.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From your own posting, you have shown that Christmas is NOT a Christinized pagan holiday.  it is a holiday that is purposely celebrated on the same day as a pagan holiday.  </p>
<p>As far as pagan observances being incorporated into a Christian holiday, I have never seen a yule log or mistletoe in a church.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: steffi</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22796</link>
		<dc:creator>steffi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 02:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>the winter solstice - it&#039;s a done deal!&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the winter solstice &#8211; it&#8217;s a done deal!<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: fundyjohn</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22795</link>
		<dc:creator>fundyjohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 01:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If God can make Christians out of Pagans why can he not make Christian celebrations out of Pagan celebrations?&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If God can make Christians out of Pagans why can he not make Christian celebrations out of Pagan celebrations?<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: dart</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22794</link>
		<dc:creator>dart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 01:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ummmmmm. yeah.  Kind of how Christianity works.  

See, they sent people out from Rome to convert the heathens,  the pagans, those who were not Christian....and they did so, by accommodating their beliefs, their gods became saints, and their holidays were absorbed into Christianity...hence:  Christmas, Lent, Easter, Halloween, just to name a couple of really popular ones. 

Thinking of adding something new?&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ummmmmm. yeah.  Kind of how Christianity works.  </p>
<p>See, they sent people out from Rome to convert the heathens,  the pagans, those who were not Christian&#8230;.and they did so, by accommodating their beliefs, their gods became saints, and their holidays were absorbed into Christianity&#8230;hence:  Christmas, Lent, Easter, Halloween, just to name a couple of really popular ones. </p>
<p>Thinking of adding something new?<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: nvkramer</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22793</link>
		<dc:creator>nvkramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Pope Julius in the year 349 declared Dec 25th the birth date of Christ because there was no date recorded for him. He did it as an &quot;in your face&quot; gesture toward the pagans, whom he didn&#039;t like.  How pious of him...!

History Astronomers have been researching the actual date of Christ&#039;s birth for years now. In Luke&#039;s gospel he says that Christ was born at the same time the ewes were giving birth.  The ewes only give birth once a year in the spring. Which would coincide with &#039;the lamb of God.&#039;

They did further study with regards to the star constellation that the wise men, or Majai, were talking about.  There wasn&#039;t exactly a star of bethlehem but there was a very unusual star formation I believe that included Jupiter.  The date of this very unusual star constellation is the only known date with regards to unusual star formations.  

This date was April 17, in the year of 7BC.  Astronomers and quite a few History Scholars believe this is the actual birth date of Jesus.  :)  Pretty cool....&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pope Julius in the year 349 declared Dec 25th the birth date of Christ because there was no date recorded for him. He did it as an &quot;in your face&quot; gesture toward the pagans, whom he didn&#8217;t like.  How pious of him&#8230;!</p>
<p>History Astronomers have been researching the actual date of Christ&#8217;s birth for years now. In Luke&#8217;s gospel he says that Christ was born at the same time the ewes were giving birth.  The ewes only give birth once a year in the spring. Which would coincide with &#8216;the lamb of God.&#8217;</p>
<p>They did further study with regards to the star constellation that the wise men, or Majai, were talking about.  There wasn&#8217;t exactly a star of bethlehem but there was a very unusual star formation I believe that included Jupiter.  The date of this very unusual star constellation is the only known date with regards to unusual star formations.  </p>
<p>This date was April 17, in the year of 7BC.  Astronomers and quite a few History Scholars believe this is the actual birth date of Jesus.  <img src='http://www.worldinchrist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   Pretty cool&#8230;.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: Barney</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22792</link>
		<dc:creator>Barney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Merry Christmas banners, lights, etc. does not make the holiday &quot;Christian&quot;.  A similar thing took place among the Israelites just before they went into the promised land.  Moses was up in the mountain getting the ten commandments and while he was gone the people persuaded Aaron to make a golden calf image and according to Exodus 32:5 Aaron said, &quot;There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow.&quot;  But that festival included pagan undertones and so Jehovah was very displeased.  The point is calling a celebration Christian does not make it so if pagan undertones are involved as is certainly the case with Christmas.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;Bible</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Merry Christmas banners, lights, etc. does not make the holiday &quot;Christian&quot;.  A similar thing took place among the Israelites just before they went into the promised land.  Moses was up in the mountain getting the ten commandments and while he was gone the people persuaded Aaron to make a golden calf image and according to Exodus 32:5 Aaron said, &quot;There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow.&quot;  But that festival included pagan undertones and so Jehovah was very displeased.  The point is calling a celebration Christian does not make it so if pagan undertones are involved as is certainly the case with Christmas.<br /><b>References : </b><br />Bible</p>
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		<title>By: Unbiblical Gospel Of Works</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22791</link>
		<dc:creator>Unbiblical Gospel Of Works</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The origin of Christmas should not be sought in the Saturnalia (1-23 December) nor even in the midnight holy birth at Eleusis (see J.E. Harrison, Prolegom., p. 549) with its probable connection through Phrygia with the Naasene heretics, or even with the Alexandrian ceremony quoted above; nor yet in rites analogous to the midwinter cult at Delphi of the cradled Dionysus, with his revocation from the sea to a new birth (Harrison, op. cit., 402 sqq.).The astronomical theory
Duchesne (Les origines du culte chrétien, Paris, 1902, 262 sqq.) advances the &quot;astronomical&quot; theory that, given 25 March as Christ&#039;s death-day [historically impossible, but a tradition old as Tertullian (Adv. Jud., 8)], the popular instinct, demanding an exact number of years in a Divine life, would place His conception on the same date, His birth 25 December. This theory is best supported by the fact that certain Montanists (Sozomen, Church History VII.18) kept Easter on 6 April; both 25 December and 6 January are thus simultaneously explained. The reckoning, moreover, is wholly in keeping with the arguments based on number and astronomy and &quot;convenience&quot;, then so popular. Unfortunately, there is no contemporary evidence for the celebration in the fourth century of Christ&#039;s conception on 25 March. 

Conclusion
The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too. 

Liturgy and custom
The calendar
The fixing of this date fixed those too of Circumcision and Presentation; of Expectation and, perhaps, Annunciation B.V.M.; and of Nativity and Conception of the Baptist (cf. Thurston in Amer. Eccl. Rev., December, 1898). Till the tenth century Christmas counted, in papal reckoning, as the beginning of the ecclesiastical year, as it still does in Bulls; Boniface VIII (1294-1303) restored temporarily this usage, to which Germany held longest. 

Popular merry-making
Codex Theod., II, 8, 27 (cf. XV, 5,5) forbids, in 425, circus games on 25 December; though not till Codex Just., III, 12, 6 (529) is cessation of work imposed. The Second Council of Tours (can. xi, xvii) proclaims, in 566 or 567, the sanctity of the &quot;twelve days&quot; from Christmas to Epiphany, and the duty of Advent fast; that of Agde (506), in canons 63-64, orders a universal communion, and that of Braga (563) forbids fasting on Christmas Day. Popular merry-making, however, so increased that the &quot;Laws of King Cnut&quot;, fabricated c. 1110, order a fast from Christmas to Epiphany. 

The three Masses
The Gelasian and Gregorian Sacramentaries give three Masses to this feast, and these, with a special and sublime martyrology, and dispensation, if necessary, from abstinence, still mark our usage. Though Rome gives three Masses to the Nativity only, Ildefonsus, a Spanish bishop, in 845, alludes to a triple mass on Nativity, Easter, Whitsun, and Transfiguration (P.L., CVI, 888). These Masses, at midnight, dawn, and in die, were mystically connected with aboriginal, Judaic, and Christian dispensations, or (as by St. Thomas, Summa Theologica III:83:2) to the triple &quot;birth&quot; of Christ: in Eternity, in Time, and in the Soul. Liturgical colours varied: black, white, red, or (e.g. at Narbonne) red, white, violet were used (Durand, Rat. Div. Off., VI, 13). The Gloria was at first sung only in the first Mass of this day. 

The historical origin of this triple Mass is probably as follows (cf. Thurston, in Amer. Eccl. Rev., January, 1899; Grisar, Anal. Rom., I, 595; Geschichte Roms . . . im Mittelalter I, 607, 397; Civ. Catt., 21 September, 1895, etc.): The first Mass, celebrated at the Oratorium Præsepis in St. Mary Major -- a church probably immediately assimilated to the Bethlehem basilica -- and the third, at St. Peter&#039;s, reproduced in Rome the double Christmas Office mentioned by Etheria (see above) at Bethlehem and Jerusalem. The second Mass was celebrated by the pope in the &quot;chapel royal&quot; of the Byzantine Court officials on the Palatine, i.e. St. Anastasia&#039;s church, originally called, like the basilica at Constantinople, Anastasis, and like it built at first to reproduce the Jerusalem Anastasis basilica -- and like it, finally, in abandoning the name &quot;Anastasis&quot; for that of the martyr St. Anastasia. The second Mass would therefore be a papal compliment to the imperial church on its patronal feast. The three stations are thus accounted for, for by 1143 (cf. Ord. Romani in P.L., LXXVIII, 1032) the pope abandoned distant St. Peter&#039;s, and said the third Mass at the high altar of St. Mary Major. At this third Mass Leo III inaugurated, in 800, by the coronation of Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Empire. The day became a favourite for court ceremonies, and on it, e.g., William of Normandy was crowned at Westminster. 

Dramatic presentations
The history of the dedication of the Oratorium Præsepis in the Liberian basilica, of the relics there kept and their imitations, does not belong to this discussion [cf. CRIB; RELICS. The data are well set out by Bonaccorsi (Il Natale, Rome, 1903, ch. iv)], but the practice of giving dramatic, or at least spectacular, expression to the incidents of the Nativity early gave rise to more or less liturgical mysteries. The ordinaria of Rouen and of Reims, for instance, place the officium pastorum immediately after the Te Deum and before Mass (cf. Ducange, Gloss. med. et inf. Lat., s.v. Pastores); the latter Church celebrated a second &quot;prophetical&quot; mystery after Tierce, in which Virgil and the Sibyl join with Old Testament prophets in honouring Christ. (For Virgil and Nativity play and prophecy see authorities in Comparetti, &quot;Virgil in Middle Ages&quot;, p. 310 sqq.) &quot;To out-herod Herod&quot;, i.e. to over-act, dates from Herod&#039;s violence in these plays. 

The crib (creche) or nativity scene
St. Francis of Assisi in 1223 originated the crib of today by laicizing a hitherto ecclesiastical custom, henceforward extra-liturgical and popular. The presence of ox and ass is due to a misinterpretation of Isaiah 1:3 and Habakkuk 3:2 (&quot;Itala&quot; version), though they appear in the unique fourth-century &quot;Nativity&quot; discovered in the St. Sebastian catacombs in 1877. The ass on which Balaam rode in the Reims mystery won for the feast the title Festum Asinorum (Ducange, op. cit., s.v. Festum). 

Hymns and carols
The degeneration of these plays in part occasioned the diffusion of noels, pastorali, and carols, to which was accorded, at times, a quasi-liturgical position. Prudentius, in the fourth century, is the first (and in that century alone) to hymn the Nativity, for the &quot;Vox clara&quot; (hymn for Lauds in Advent) and &quot;Christe Redemptor&quot; (Vespers and Matins of Christmas) cannot be assigned to Ambrose. &quot;A solis ortu&quot; is certainly, however, by Sedulius (fifth century). The earliest German Weihnachtslieder date from the eleventh and twelfth centuries, the earliest noels from the eleventh, the earliest carols from the thirteenth. The famous &quot;Stabat Mater Speciosa&quot; is attributed to Jacopone da Todi (1230-1306); &quot;Adeste Fideles&quot; is, at the earliest, of the seventeenth century. These essentially popular airs, and even words, must, however, have existed long before they were put down in writing. 

Cards and presents
Pagan customs centering round the January calends gravitated to Christmas. Tiele (Yule and Christmas, London, 1899) has collected many interesting examples. The strenæ (eacute;trennes) of the Roman 1 January (bitterly condemned by Tertullian, de Idol., xiv and x, and by Maximus of Turin, Hom. ciii, de Kal. gentil., in P.L., LVII, 492, etc.) survive as Christmas presents, cards, boxes. 

The yule log
The calend fires were a scandal even to Rome, and St. Boniface obtained from Pope Zachary their abolition. But probably the Yule-log in its many forms was originally lit only in view of the cold season. Only in 1577 did it become a public ceremony in England; its popularity, however, grew immense, especially in Provence; in Tuscany, Christmas is simply called ceppo (block, log -- Bonaccorsi, op. cit., p. 145, n. 2). Besides, it became connected with other usages; in England, a tenant had the right to feed at his lord&#039;s expense as long as a wheel, i.e. a round, of wood, given by him, would burn, the landlord gave to a tenant a load of wood on the birth of a child; Kindsfuss was a present given to children on the birth of a brother or sister, and even to the farm animals on that of Christ, the universal little brother (Tiele, op. cit., p. 95 sqq.). 

Greenery
Gervase of Tilbury (thirteen century) says that in England grain is exposed on Christmas night to gain fertility from the dew which falls in response to &quot;Rorate Cæli&quot;; the tradition that trees and flowers blossomed on this night is first quoted from an Arab geographer of the tenth century, and extended to England. In a thirteenth-century French epic, candles are seen on the flowering tree. In England it was Joseph of Arimathea&#039;s rod which flowered at Glastonbury and elsewhere; when 3 September became 14 September, in 1752, 2000 people watched to see if the Quainton thorn (cratagus præcox) would blow on Christmas New Style; and as it did not, they refused to keep the New Style festival. From this belief of the calends practice of greenery decorations (forbidden by Archbishop Martin of Braga, c. 575, P.L., LXXIII -- mistletoe was bequeathed by the Druids) developed the Christmas tree, first definitely mentioned in 1605 at Strasburg, and introduced into France and England in 1840 only, by P&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The origin of Christmas should not be sought in the Saturnalia (1-23 December) nor even in the midnight holy birth at Eleusis (see J.E. Harrison, Prolegom., p. 549) with its probable connection through Phrygia with the Naasene heretics, or even with the Alexandrian ceremony quoted above; nor yet in rites analogous to the midwinter cult at Delphi of the cradled Dionysus, with his revocation from the sea to a new birth (Harrison, op. cit., 402 sqq.).The astronomical theory<br />
Duchesne (Les origines du culte chrétien, Paris, 1902, 262 sqq.) advances the &quot;astronomical&quot; theory that, given 25 March as Christ&#8217;s death-day [historically impossible, but a tradition old as Tertullian (Adv. Jud., 8)], the popular instinct, demanding an exact number of years in a Divine life, would place His conception on the same date, His birth 25 December. This theory is best supported by the fact that certain Montanists (Sozomen, Church History VII.18) kept Easter on 6 April; both 25 December and 6 January are thus simultaneously explained. The reckoning, moreover, is wholly in keeping with the arguments based on number and astronomy and &quot;convenience&quot;, then so popular. Unfortunately, there is no contemporary evidence for the celebration in the fourth century of Christ&#8217;s conception on 25 March. </p>
<p>Conclusion<br />
The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too. </p>
<p>Liturgy and custom<br />
The calendar<br />
The fixing of this date fixed those too of Circumcision and Presentation; of Expectation and, perhaps, Annunciation B.V.M.; and of Nativity and Conception of the Baptist (cf. Thurston in Amer. Eccl. Rev., December, 1898). Till the tenth century Christmas counted, in papal reckoning, as the beginning of the ecclesiastical year, as it still does in Bulls; Boniface VIII (1294-1303) restored temporarily this usage, to which Germany held longest. </p>
<p>Popular merry-making<br />
Codex Theod., II, 8, 27 (cf. XV, 5,5) forbids, in 425, circus games on 25 December; though not till Codex Just., III, 12, 6 (529) is cessation of work imposed. The Second Council of Tours (can. xi, xvii) proclaims, in 566 or 567, the sanctity of the &quot;twelve days&quot; from Christmas to Epiphany, and the duty of Advent fast; that of Agde (506), in canons 63-64, orders a universal communion, and that of Braga (563) forbids fasting on Christmas Day. Popular merry-making, however, so increased that the &quot;Laws of King Cnut&quot;, fabricated c. 1110, order a fast from Christmas to Epiphany. </p>
<p>The three Masses<br />
The Gelasian and Gregorian Sacramentaries give three Masses to this feast, and these, with a special and sublime martyrology, and dispensation, if necessary, from abstinence, still mark our usage. Though Rome gives three Masses to the Nativity only, Ildefonsus, a Spanish bishop, in 845, alludes to a triple mass on Nativity, Easter, Whitsun, and Transfiguration (P.L., CVI, 888). These Masses, at midnight, dawn, and in die, were mystically connected with aboriginal, Judaic, and Christian dispensations, or (as by St. Thomas, Summa Theologica III:83:2) to the triple &quot;birth&quot; of Christ: in Eternity, in Time, and in the Soul. Liturgical colours varied: black, white, red, or (e.g. at Narbonne) red, white, violet were used (Durand, Rat. Div. Off., VI, 13). The Gloria was at first sung only in the first Mass of this day. </p>
<p>The historical origin of this triple Mass is probably as follows (cf. Thurston, in Amer. Eccl. Rev., January, 1899; Grisar, Anal. Rom., I, 595; Geschichte Roms . . . im Mittelalter I, 607, 397; Civ. Catt., 21 September, 1895, etc.): The first Mass, celebrated at the Oratorium Præsepis in St. Mary Major &#8212; a church probably immediately assimilated to the Bethlehem basilica &#8212; and the third, at St. Peter&#8217;s, reproduced in Rome the double Christmas Office mentioned by Etheria (see above) at Bethlehem and Jerusalem. The second Mass was celebrated by the pope in the &quot;chapel royal&quot; of the Byzantine Court officials on the Palatine, i.e. St. Anastasia&#8217;s church, originally called, like the basilica at Constantinople, Anastasis, and like it built at first to reproduce the Jerusalem Anastasis basilica &#8212; and like it, finally, in abandoning the name &quot;Anastasis&quot; for that of the martyr St. Anastasia. The second Mass would therefore be a papal compliment to the imperial church on its patronal feast. The three stations are thus accounted for, for by 1143 (cf. Ord. Romani in P.L., LXXVIII, 1032) the pope abandoned distant St. Peter&#8217;s, and said the third Mass at the high altar of St. Mary Major. At this third Mass Leo III inaugurated, in 800, by the coronation of Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Empire. The day became a favourite for court ceremonies, and on it, e.g., William of Normandy was crowned at Westminster. </p>
<p>Dramatic presentations<br />
The history of the dedication of the Oratorium Præsepis in the Liberian basilica, of the relics there kept and their imitations, does not belong to this discussion [cf. CRIB; RELICS. The data are well set out by Bonaccorsi (Il Natale, Rome, 1903, ch. iv)], but the practice of giving dramatic, or at least spectacular, expression to the incidents of the Nativity early gave rise to more or less liturgical mysteries. The ordinaria of Rouen and of Reims, for instance, place the officium pastorum immediately after the Te Deum and before Mass (cf. Ducange, Gloss. med. et inf. Lat., s.v. Pastores); the latter Church celebrated a second &quot;prophetical&quot; mystery after Tierce, in which Virgil and the Sibyl join with Old Testament prophets in honouring Christ. (For Virgil and Nativity play and prophecy see authorities in Comparetti, &quot;Virgil in Middle Ages&quot;, p. 310 sqq.) &quot;To out-herod Herod&quot;, i.e. to over-act, dates from Herod&#8217;s violence in these plays. </p>
<p>The crib (creche) or nativity scene<br />
St. Francis of Assisi in 1223 originated the crib of today by laicizing a hitherto ecclesiastical custom, henceforward extra-liturgical and popular. The presence of ox and ass is due to a misinterpretation of Isaiah 1:3 and Habakkuk 3:2 (&quot;Itala&quot; version), though they appear in the unique fourth-century &quot;Nativity&quot; discovered in the St. Sebastian catacombs in 1877. The ass on which Balaam rode in the Reims mystery won for the feast the title Festum Asinorum (Ducange, op. cit., s.v. Festum). </p>
<p>Hymns and carols<br />
The degeneration of these plays in part occasioned the diffusion of noels, pastorali, and carols, to which was accorded, at times, a quasi-liturgical position. Prudentius, in the fourth century, is the first (and in that century alone) to hymn the Nativity, for the &quot;Vox clara&quot; (hymn for Lauds in Advent) and &quot;Christe Redemptor&quot; (Vespers and Matins of Christmas) cannot be assigned to Ambrose. &quot;A solis ortu&quot; is certainly, however, by Sedulius (fifth century). The earliest German Weihnachtslieder date from the eleventh and twelfth centuries, the earliest noels from the eleventh, the earliest carols from the thirteenth. The famous &quot;Stabat Mater Speciosa&quot; is attributed to Jacopone da Todi (1230-1306); &quot;Adeste Fideles&quot; is, at the earliest, of the seventeenth century. These essentially popular airs, and even words, must, however, have existed long before they were put down in writing. </p>
<p>Cards and presents<br />
Pagan customs centering round the January calends gravitated to Christmas. Tiele (Yule and Christmas, London, 1899) has collected many interesting examples. The strenæ (eacute;trennes) of the Roman 1 January (bitterly condemned by Tertullian, de Idol., xiv and x, and by Maximus of Turin, Hom. ciii, de Kal. gentil., in P.L., LVII, 492, etc.) survive as Christmas presents, cards, boxes. </p>
<p>The yule log<br />
The calend fires were a scandal even to Rome, and St. Boniface obtained from Pope Zachary their abolition. But probably the Yule-log in its many forms was originally lit only in view of the cold season. Only in 1577 did it become a public ceremony in England; its popularity, however, grew immense, especially in Provence; in Tuscany, Christmas is simply called ceppo (block, log &#8212; Bonaccorsi, op. cit., p. 145, n. 2). Besides, it became connected with other usages; in England, a tenant had the right to feed at his lord&#8217;s expense as long as a wheel, i.e. a round, of wood, given by him, would burn, the landlord gave to a tenant a load of wood on the birth of a child; Kindsfuss was a present given to children on the birth of a brother or sister, and even to the farm animals on that of Christ, the universal little brother (Tiele, op. cit., p. 95 sqq.). </p>
<p>Greenery<br />
Gervase of Tilbury (thirteen century) says that in England grain is exposed on Christmas night to gain fertility from the dew which falls in response to &quot;Rorate Cæli&quot;; the tradition that trees and flowers blossomed on this night is first quoted from an Arab geographer of the tenth century, and extended to England. In a thirteenth-century French epic, candles are seen on the flowering tree. In England it was Joseph of Arimathea&#8217;s rod which flowered at Glastonbury and elsewhere; when 3 September became 14 September, in 1752, 2000 people watched to see if the Quainton thorn (cratagus præcox) would blow on Christmas New Style; and as it did not, they refused to keep the New Style festival. From this belief of the calends practice of greenery decorations (forbidden by Archbishop Martin of Braga, c. 575, P.L., LXXIII &#8212; mistletoe was bequeathed by the Druids) developed the Christmas tree, first definitely mentioned in 1605 at Strasburg, and introduced into France and England in 1840 only, by P<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: AuroraBee</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22790</link>
		<dc:creator>AuroraBee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s a big enough day for anyone to celebrate anything they want to on it.

I don&#039;t think it matters what is done to celebrate, whether its pagan rituals or watching Frosty the Snowman or just hanging out with family and friends.

People get too concerned about what other people are doing, I think we should all chill and live and let live.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a big enough day for anyone to celebrate anything they want to on it.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it matters what is done to celebrate, whether its pagan rituals or watching Frosty the Snowman or just hanging out with family and friends.</p>
<p>People get too concerned about what other people are doing, I think we should all chill and live and let live.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: BibleChooser</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22789</link>
		<dc:creator>BibleChooser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian#comment-22789</guid>
		<description>Well, I think that the answer is simple.

How many Christians use a yule log or mistletoe to worship a pagan god?

How many Christians use Dec 25 to worship the sun God?

Clearly, pagan holidays not only can be made Christian - there are plain examples in history (such as Christmas) where even the smallest details have been divorced entirely from pagan worship and are never practiced in any regard to pagan worship

Christmas - and several other holidays as well - have been *thoroughly* Christianized.

Jim, http://www.bible-reviews.com&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I think that the answer is simple.</p>
<p>How many Christians use a yule log or mistletoe to worship a pagan god?</p>
<p>How many Christians use Dec 25 to worship the sun God?</p>
<p>Clearly, pagan holidays not only can be made Christian &#8211; there are plain examples in history (such as Christmas) where even the smallest details have been divorced entirely from pagan worship and are never practiced in any regard to pagan worship</p>
<p>Christmas &#8211; and several other holidays as well &#8211; have been *thoroughly* Christianized.</p>
<p>Jim, <a href="http://www.bible-reviews.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.bible-reviews.com</a><br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: harpertara</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22788</link>
		<dc:creator>harpertara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 22:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian#comment-22788</guid>
		<description>From your own question, the answer has already happened.  All Christian holidays are pagan in origin.  Christmas is pagan, certainly.  Everything about Christmas is pagan, really.  Even Easter is pagan in almost all of its modern day trappings.  Oh, yes, Jesus supposedly rose on Easter morning, but did you know the word &#039;Easter&#039; comes from the pagan goddess of spring, Eostre?  All the the rabbits, eggs, lilies, etc. associated with Easter also come from her mythology.
As I have said numerous times on this list...Christianity is a mingling of Jewish and Pagan rites, beliefs, etc.  It is what it is.  The only difference is that Jesus is your god not Mithra or Ra or Zeus or Lugh or whomever.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From your own question, the answer has already happened.  All Christian holidays are pagan in origin.  Christmas is pagan, certainly.  Everything about Christmas is pagan, really.  Even Easter is pagan in almost all of its modern day trappings.  Oh, yes, Jesus supposedly rose on Easter morning, but did you know the word &#8216;Easter&#8217; comes from the pagan goddess of spring, Eostre?  All the the rabbits, eggs, lilies, etc. associated with Easter also come from her mythology.<br />
As I have said numerous times on this list&#8230;Christianity is a mingling of Jewish and Pagan rites, beliefs, etc.  It is what it is.  The only difference is that Jesus is your god not Mithra or Ra or Zeus or Lugh or whomever.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: happy holiDAYS</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22787</link>
		<dc:creator>happy holiDAYS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 22:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian#comment-22787</guid>
		<description>Yes it can and it did happen. It isn&#039;t as prevalent now since Winter Solstice was &quot;moved&quot; by the change in calendars. We have Dec 21st (usually) for Winter Solstice. Yule began today and will continue through Epiphany. I have to add that while the holiday was &quot;made&quot; Christian, it boils down to intent. While a Christian is putting forth effort to honor their deity, pagans can still celebrate by honoring their own deity. They may look alike, but the intent is widely different.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes it can and it did happen. It isn&#8217;t as prevalent now since Winter Solstice was &quot;moved&quot; by the change in calendars. We have Dec 21st (usually) for Winter Solstice. Yule began today and will continue through Epiphany. I have to add that while the holiday was &quot;made&quot; Christian, it boils down to intent. While a Christian is putting forth effort to honor their deity, pagans can still celebrate by honoring their own deity. They may look alike, but the intent is widely different.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: pappy12a</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22786</link>
		<dc:creator>pappy12a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 22:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian#comment-22786</guid>
		<description>Pagan /Wicca holidays have already been made Christian 

Both Christmas and Easter are modifications of older (Pagan /Wicca ) religious celebrations&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pagan /Wicca holidays have already been made Christian </p>
<p>Both Christmas and Easter are modifications of older (Pagan /Wicca ) religious celebrations<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: No Chance Without Jesus</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22785</link>
		<dc:creator>No Chance Without Jesus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 21:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian#comment-22785</guid>
		<description>If Pagan&#039;s can become Christians, I suppose we can redeem their holidays as well.  What was once pagan is now Christian. Sounds good to me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Pagan&#8217;s can become Christians, I suppose we can redeem their holidays as well.  What was once pagan is now Christian. Sounds good to me.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: Monica P</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22784</link>
		<dc:creator>Monica P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian#comment-22784</guid>
		<description>and how do the pagan gods feel
or maybe God is all gods 
including the ones you never heard of&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and how do the pagan gods feel<br />
or maybe God is all gods<br />
including the ones you never heard of<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: Choclate milk lol</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22783</link>
		<dc:creator>Choclate milk lol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian#comment-22783</guid>
		<description>Christmas, pagan holiday
Easter, pagan holiday (named after Eostre, the goddess in the form of a RABBIT)&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christmas, pagan holiday<br />
Easter, pagan holiday (named after Eostre, the goddess in the form of a RABBIT)<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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		<title>By: Biu</title>
		<link>http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian/comment-page-1#comment-22782</link>
		<dc:creator>Biu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:18:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.worldinchrist.com/christian-books/christian-book-center/can-a-pagan-holidy-be-made-christian#comment-22782</guid>
		<description>It has already happened.&lt;br&gt;&lt;b&gt;References : &lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has already happened.<br /><b>References : </b></p>
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